Why is bad English good English?

**ucitel** · 06-28-2006, 02:53 AM

I teach at a community college with a large number of foreign students. Upon entry, all of them have to take a standardized ESL placement test. Many students who successfully "graduated" from American high schools get furious when their score places them into beginning or intermediate ESL. They sincerely think their English is really good, and insist they got excellent grades in "regular" high school English. They didn't just pass; they got all A's! But, in fact, their English is not very advanced.

I'm very schooled in second language acquisition, and have learned a language in immersion myself and understand it from inside the learner's head. And I also know about the whole phenomenon of social promotion and the self-esteem garbage.

However, since I'm not involved in K-12 education, what I don't know is this: What, concretely, are the schools and teachers doing to convince these students that their English is so terrific? If they're just socially promoting them or just giving them grades for "trying", you'd think these very smart kdis would figure it out. But they don't. This means the teachers are doing something to puff up these students' egos. What?

This doesn't go for all districts. We never see the foreign graduates from the upscale districts, because they don't place into ESL. In these districts ESL is basically run by one "volunteer coordinator" and a bunch of ladies working either for nothing or for minimum wage. In the districts where things come out badly, the students get full-time teachers and parapros, and the results are rotten.

Any explanations?

**Zheljko** · 07-12-2006, 09:51 AM

Over here our schools have numerous tracks, and kids who are not very into bookwork (I don't know any better PC word) take a lower-level course of EFL than kids who go into college-prep. College-prep kids are also placed into two groups: science college-prep and humanities college-prep, and it is the latter group that gets the best EFL education. The non-col-prep kids are the ones that are most likely to end up in community college versus going directly to university. Therefore you would get our lower half? of students, who are basically not into studying and therefore have large holes in their English knowledge.

Their HS teachers are probably giving best grades to their best students in the bunch (sort of curving the grade) so if a kid is a blabbermouth who knows many English words from movies or songs but seriously struggles with grammar, he/she can still be the best in your class/track and they give him/her an A. Most of the classmates would not get into community college at all, so your school actually gets the best of the lowest group.

About the kids' perception of their English abilities: they are probably speaking English better than anyone else they know (except the teacher) so they can not realistically judge their knowledge. They are probably immersed in some other language all day outside of school, talk their own language around family and friends, and have no real use of complex grammar, so they don't practice it.

About the rich vs. poor districts - it is a tradition that a rich person will pay a tutor if the child struggles in certain subject (this is mostly the case with math and physics). There are numerous small-group English courses advertized in vicinity of school buildings, aimed at young elementary students, so anyone who can afford to pay (they are not cheap) sends their child to learn English from a very young age. Those who can not afford it must learn English only in school, and there they must sit in a classroom with 30 other kids, waiting for their turn to say a sentence.

**Cerulean** · 07-12-2006, 12:01 PM

From what I can remember of my linguistics class this past semester, it comes down to a manner of standardized vs. non-standardized English. While some teachers (and parents) feel that standardized language is the way to go, some feel that as long as students can effectively communicate in a language that they will be set, thus they subscribe to non-standardized English. It also brings in the argument of descriptive and prescriptive.

I would say that if you're having students who's English isn't as perfect as you demand, it might just be your teaching style clashing with that of their previous teachers, notsomuch grade promotion for the sake of boosting their egos.

**kontan** · 07-12-2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by ucitel

This means the teachers are doing something to puff up these students' egos.

Most high school students who would dare tell you how wonderful their scores were do not need me or anyone else to puff up their ego.

The other question is what is being graded for them to previously make As, your standard may be higher. At the secondary level modifications have to be made for ESL students. I have known teachers who say you can not fail an ESL student. They believe you have to modify to a degree that allows that student to make really good grades. There is a basic misunderstanding regarding the laws. Every school, every district, is different in how they deal with ESL. Some are more vigilant than others.

**MsAmes** · 04-08-2012, 05:21 PM

I think there is just a significant gap between what high school teachers expect to teach and what college professors expect students to have already learned. I also think that different tracks might be responsible. Our ESL courses that are college prep level are much more comprehensive than those that are standard level.

**Mrs. Bass** · 04-08-2012, 05:35 PM

I've never heard of kids being lied to or undeserving of their grades in English. I was one of those kids who got all A's in the subject, and while I agree high school English is not the same as the more advanced stuff and we all have areas to improve in, this doesn't equate to automatically being inadequate. Plenty of high schoolers who did well in their English classes deserve the status.

**Chiltern** · 04-27-2012, 10:12 AM

I don't know which countries your students hail from, but when I first worked with Asian ESL students I was blown away by their expectations. One student even told me there were only two grades: A and fail! Perhaps this thinking is part of the issue?

**AudreyA** · 04-27-2012, 10:56 PM

Teachers who do not teach English specifically may not worry so much about their English skills. As long as they can make themselves understood and demonstrate knowledge of the subject matter (for example, in math), the student's grasp of English may not be a concern.

**WhiteBoard** · 04-30-2012, 01:45 AM

I once had ESL students who first thought that they had a good grasp of the English language because they could communicate and use a string of idiomatic expressions. However, as our sessions continued they were faced with the fact that their level wasn't as advanced as they believed it to be.

**Paully** · 04-30-2012, 11:43 AM

I do believe it is the difference of what high school teachers look for compared to college teachers. I did not do well in English in High School but I excelled in college. I was the exact opposite of what you are stating here. I don't beleive there is an English Regents test so the English teachers can pretty much just grade how they want to.